2013 COMPETITOR REQUESTS/FEEDBACK
The CNS Staff would like to thank all the competitors that took the time to send in feedback and requests for changes an additions to the rules and race format at Colorado National Speedway for 2013 and beyond. It's this type of cooperation that's helps CNS to remain one of the best short tracks in the country. At this time we are also cleaning up the rule book and will be posting that soon as well. Please review the following feedback requests along with our response to each issue. Make sure to read the entire thing including the "General" section as some of that may apply to your class as well.
The format of this document is the raw feedback from the competitors followed by the CNS staff response.
2013 COMPETITOR REQUESTS
SUPER LATE MODELS (FORMERLY LATE MODELS):
1) I was hoping we could get a measurement rule for the nose of the car, to keep guys from cutting the lower section for more ground clearance. I was at Mobile speedway and notice they were checking that.
Answer: ABC body rules will be enforced as is noted in the rule book. On a separate note, roof rails will be allowed and in the rule book will be 1 inch in height.
2) Thought the crates in the late models should get a better weight break for the shorter events. The crates don't shine unless it’s a 100 lap feature with minimum cautions once again thanks for the time. What is the speedway going to do to help those Late Models guys that run a crate motor? I feel that the weight break should be more than it is. If ya’ll go back to a harder tire, it will make even the 100 lap races difficult.
Answer: Management at CNS has determined that the weight for races less than 100 continuous laps will be 2750 lbs, and 2800 lbs for 100 lap and greater events. This only applies to the GM Sealed Crate 604 engine. Concerning this crate engine the following will be allowed for the CNS motor:
- Carburetor: 650 CFM gauge legal maximum. 1“spacer between carburetor will be allowed.
- Ignition systems will be limited to 6600 rpm. All other requirements for ignition systems currently in the rule book will be enforced.
- Approved aftermarket harmonic balancers and pulleys will be allowed.
- 1.5 Or 1.6 aluminium roller rocker arms are allowed.
- Factory installed valve springs as well as GM 12499224 Beehive valve springs are allowed.
- Factory installed oil pans as well as the 6.5” aftermarket oil pans allowed.
3) Harder tires.
Answer: For 2013 the right side will now be a 3045 and the left side will stay the same at 3025.
4) Tech more than top three, mid pack cars need to be rule compliant as well.
Answer: Mystery guests have always been an option as noted in the rule book, and the tech officials will determine which individual(s) should also be verified as being rule compliant at any given time.
5) I noticed in the rule book for the Late Models it states no floating brake rotors. We actually run these out of town and after using them I believe they are a cost savings for the racer. Reason being you can convert to floater off of any hub for about $80 a corner ( $320 ) a car. With that being said we have ran 6 out of town races that use far more brake than Erie and the pads still look new. With the floater rotor pushing the pad off you alleviate at least %50 of the wear, not to mention cut the chances of a stuck brake caliper. In the six races we ran at Erie we used up half a set of brake pads, when you figure a set of good pads for a late model is close to $400.00 one round of brake pads saved could make up the cost of the floaters. I think this rule was actually intended for old floating brake systems verse just rotors but I am not sure. Here is another:
FLOATING TYPE BRAKE ROTORS: OK because brake pads last longer and you get more braking power. Keeps the heat from the hub, wheel bearing grease lasts longer and it saves money on brakes also. I think it was approved last year, but it wasn't in print anywhere.
Answer: CNS Management agrees with this and as such the statement “No floating type brake rotors” will be struck from the 2013 rule book.
6) Tire rule: Have to run rights for two to three night and lefts four to five. It allows the budget racer to be more competitive to the racers with money and it make the racer with money have to manage his tires to make the car last. Here is another suggestion: Limit new tires to 6 per two races, mark the sidewalls with date and CNS stamp.
Answer: A harder right side tire has been implemented for 2013 as a starting point. CNS has and will continue to work towards keeping racing costs as minimal as possible without jeopardizing safety. Consideration is also being considered for tire limitations per event.
LATE MODELS (FORMERLY SPORTSMAN):
1) I heard muscle car bodies are going to be allowed in sportsman class for next year (Camaro, mustangs, etc. ABC, five star, and AR body's make these). I think it would be great for the sportsman class to be allowed to run these bodies because it will start to give sportsman’s there own look, a little different look then the late models!
Answer: CNS agrees with this suggestion and will implement for the 2013 racing season.
2) I would like to be able to run cross over headers just so we have a little clearance. There is no power gained by them and the price is the same. From a different competitor their rational: I believe that with the recent permission of no frame height plus an abbreviated drivers /firewall compartment a suitable header(i.e. crossovers,180's etc) would be beneficial to all Sportsman vehicles.
Answer: CNS is open to considering this in the future, however, at this time; we feel it is an expense that is not in the best interest of the division.
3) (a)I would also throw out there it would be nice to take some lead off the cars. I have 500lbs of lead on my car I think it's a little unsafe to have that much also it's expensive. I think the cars should weigh 3000lbs. Here is another suggestion (b): The current minimum weight rule has been in place since we simply knocked the windows out of a Camaro and installed a roll cage. The cars, even with the current rules have continued to get lighter as they evolve. This is purely a safety issue. We are mounting 500-600 pounds of ballast to these cars. This is not only detrimental to a race car’s longevity, but also a HUGE safety factor for both competitors and spectators. We simply cannot safely mount this amount of lead to our lightweight chassis. Here is another suggestion (c): Make the entire class weigh the same.
Answer: Weights with the driver before the race for 2013 will be; up to 365 Maximum C.I.D. it will be 3000 lbs. minimum, over 365 C.I.D. will be 3300 lbs. minimum and the Crate (GM Sealed Crate 604 engine) engine will be 3075 lbs. minimum.
4) 604 sealed GM Crate rule NOT ASA, with at least 2 authorized rebuilders (in Denver) that agree to dyno test and provide CNS with documentation. CNS can dyno and re-seal anytime a car is dominating or teardown money is offered.
Answer: CNS has and will continue to dyno motors at it’s discretion to verify legal requirements. There will be no “rebuild” motors allowed, only factory sealed.
5) The Sportsman cars are NOT late models and require rules that “contain” costs. Please find ways to further limit costs, epically tire costs.
Answer: The tire for the division will stay the same as last year. CNS has and will continue to work towards keeping racing costs as minimal as possible without jeopardizing safety. Tires per event will be limited to 4 tires per event (2 rights and 2 lefts).
6) Absolutely NO MODIFICATIONS to stock Camaro front stub pick up points. Maintain the stock Camaro front stub rule and ENFORCE stock locations of stock front end parts: stock attachment points of the idler arm; stock center links; stock steering box locations and stock lower control arm locations. (Note: I noticed last year Ford lower control arms mounted under Camaro stubs).
Answer: The rule book will be enforced.
7) Make sportsman cars as equal as possible. Add an additional 50 lb penalty for aluminum heads and the 50 lbs will be bolted to a specific place in the right front (RF) of the car.
Answer: Already added 25 lbs for crate motor under new ruling (3).
8) Make sportsman cars as equal as possible. For any car and driver that wins more than two main events, they will be required to add 50 pounds to the overall weight of the racecar every time he/she wins another main event. This applies to both the car and driver The 50 lbs will be bolted to a specific place in the right front (RF) of the car. Weight will remain for the duration of the season.
Answer: A careful review of other tracks as well as thorough discussion found that what would essentially be a penalty for being competitive does not appear to be in the best interest of racing.
9) Make sportsman cars as equal as possible. The CNS technical staff and/or CNS management have the discretion to add weight in 50. Lbs increments to any sportsman car in an effort to equalize the field of cars The 50 lbs will be bolted to a specific place in the right front (RF) of the car.
Answer: A careful review of other tracks as well as thorough discussion found that what would essentially be a penalty for being competitive does not appear to be in the best interest of racing.
10) Make sportsman cars as equal as possible. Add an additional 50 lb penalty for an under slung chassis and the 50 lbs will be bolted to a specific place in the right front (RF) of the car.
Answer: A great deal of discussion occurred on this matter and we will monitor the situation and make a determination at that time if this or something similar needs to occur.
11) Allow three piece sway bars. They are cheaper period. There is a huge supply of used splined bars available from the local and national Late Model market. Specialized one piece, racing sway bars are limited in quantity as well as very highly priced! If we were allowed 3 piece bars they can be bought for as little as $40.
Answer: CNS management respectively disagrees with this suggestion and does not endorse.
12) We do not now have a feasible tire rule. This significantly drives up the weekly cost for your average racer. A “tire bank” type situation may be the answer, but I am open for any ideas on this topic that can reduce cost therefore increasing car counts. We did it in the sportsman’s before and I truly believe it was not abused by anyone in that division.
Answer: The tire for the division will stay the same as last year. CNS has and will continue to work towards keeping racing costs as minimal as possible without jeopardizing safety. Tires per event will be limited to 4 tires per event ( 2 rights and 2 lefts).
13) I know that at Colorado National Speedway this topic has actually become taboo. However, it needs addressed head on and now! (This elephant in the room isn’t going anywhere gentlemen) Stock front stubs have become increasingly more difficult to locate as well as more expensive through your local chassis builder to modify to what we are currently using. Colorado National Speedway is sadly behind the curve on this issue. Every nationally known chassis manufacturer now has affordable, readily available front stubs. These stubs are far more easily policed to determine they fit all stock O.E.M. pick-up points (I.e. lower control arm mounts, steering box location, etc.) than even a labor intensive, factory stub that may or may not have been involved in an accident in its 40+ year life span.
Answer: CNS management respectively disagrees with this suggestion and does not endorse.
14) Let us use 180 degree or wrap around headers due to the no frame height rule, the headers drag the track unless you raise the engine way up in the air. I think there needs to be a header claim rule still in effect so the racer with an unlimited budget will have second thoughts about buy the real expensive headers or only allow a certain brand and model.
Answer: CNS management respectively disagrees with this suggestion and does not endorse.
15) Let us exchange the outer tie rod ends for hiem joints and still use stock spindles with the adaptor that goes into tie rod hole so we can set bump with out tweaking spindle arms or ?
Answer: CNS management respectively disagrees with this suggestion and does not endorse.
16) Open up shock rule a little bit. Maybe a bilstein shock SN series and other equivalent brands but no canister type shocks. I know the gas pressure can be changed and that was the main reason we weren't able to run them in the past. The SN series shock is a steel body shock also and run about $150 a piece.
Answer: CNS management respectively disagrees with this suggestion and does not endorse.
17) Maybe even allow a type of locker also as in a Detroit or gold track.
Answer: CNS management respectively disagrees with this suggestion and does not endorse.
18) Another crate engine the 5.3l Shwanke fuel injected basically the same hp as Chevy crate and about the same cost I think it's cheaper actually.
Answer: CNS management respectively disagrees with this suggestion and does not endorse.
19) Tire rule: Have to run rights for two to three night and lefts four to five. It allows the budget racer to be more competitive to the racers with money and it make the racer with money have to manage his tires to make the car last.
Answer: The tire for the division will stay the same as last year. CNS has and will continue to work towards keeping racing costs as minimal as possible without jeopardizing safety. Tires per event will be limited to 4 tires per event (2 rights and 2 lefts).
20) I have a question about a grey area in the rule book. I’m looking at buying a lefthander sportsman chassis that comes direct from lefthander with a Camaro front stub with all stock locations except the cross member is cut down and shortened on the very bottom to make more ground clearance so you are not hitting or dragging on the track . Is this legal at CNS is what I need to know? It looks to have the very bottom cut off and a flat piece of metal welded back in place giving you around 1 inch more clearance.
Answer: If the stub from Lefthander or Howe is unmodified it is a legal stub. However, any modification outside of the way the stub is deleivered from Lefthander or Howe that will be considered a illegal modification.
21) Carburetor additions:
Answer: Keith Dorton part number 0-80583-1 as it comes out of the box and must meet specifications. All other rules pertaining to carburetors will apply as in the rule book
PRO TRUCKS:
1) Allow Straight Rail Chassis. Chassis Manufacturers do not make Perimeter Chassis anymore. If we want the class to grow and improve we need to be able to build new trucks. Most of the trucks out there now are 20 years old. I know the 27 and the 5 have straight rails with a perimeter rail added. Why go to that extra effort? Just allow straight rails so we can just use late model chassis with a Truck roll cage.
Answer: CNS agrees with this suggestion and will implement for the 2013 racing season.
2) The harmonic balancer rule for the parts list motors needs to be put back to the original part # that is in the rule book as of now. This engine doesn't need anymore of an advantage.
Answer: CNS has determined that the three (3) 6 ¾” following harmonic balancers will be allowed: (1) PP 90000, (2) EPGHB EP1012SS (3) ATI 917780.
3) A harder tire compound needs to be used so that we don't have to buy 6 tires every race. 1 compound harder is what I'm looking for. For instance 3035 on the left and 3045 on the right.
Answer: For 2013 the right side will now be a 3045 and the left side will stay the same at 3025. Tires per event will be limited to 4 tires per event (2 rights and 2 lefts).
4) The crate motor needs to have a 100lb. Weight break to make the total weight 2700 for that engine. The United States Super Trucks have similar rules as ours and have a 150lb weight break for that engine. Note: All of the pro truck drivers voted yes to this engine rule at the meeting we had last spring. Also I will not be running this engine because I already have one so please do not think I am trying to get an advantage. Just trying to make this class more affordable.
Answer: CNS will allow the GM 604 as shipped sealed engine for 2013 with a 100 lb. weight break making the total weight 2700 lbs.
5) I really think you should look into the Shwanke fuel injected motor for pro trucks they work great for the late models and he makes one that would work in the trucks and be more reasonable than the $14000 parts list motor that is made from Chinese junk. He wants $8000 race ready 485 HP just like the parts list or $5000 if you provide the base motor. I would love to be the test dummy for this motor if your willing to try them out you need to make trucks affordable again otherwise there is no point I can buy a late model race ready for $15000 why build a truck motor for $14000. I am looking at running full time next year in my truck depending on what you do with the motor. As of right now I am thinking about a spec motor for the cost but in my opinion the fuel injected motor at $8000 could save the class and keep costs down.
Answer: CNS does not feel allowing the Shwanke motor to be in the best interest of the class. However, as an alternative that meets your criteria, the GM Sealed Crate 604 will be allowed as previously discussed.
6) My concern is the gear rule that was changed in the trucks a few years back. Since that rule was changed from the 5.79 up to the current gear we have torn a lot of equipment up. The reason I think this is happening is do to the fact once you have to get out of the throttle there is not enough gear to have any "pick up" causing the closing rate on the other trucks to be too much. It just kills the motor to much. This was changed because a couple of guys thought it would increase the longevity of the motor. I don't believe a 150 to 200 rpm increase really does that but it does kill the motors torque. I think we should have the option of going up to this gear as we did for several years.
Answer: CNS management respectively disagrees with this suggestion and does not endorse.
G.A.M.:
1) We had a good class this season. Best turn out in along time. I feel the rules are why. I'm happy with the tire. The only thing I would even entertain is going with 58% left.
Answer: After a careful review of the 2012 season, there does not appear a satisfactory reason to change.
2) Tire Purchase Limits in support divisions. Please, please consider this. We did not run every event in 2012 due to the expense of tires. All top cars in the GAM class bought 4 tires every night, and that is ridiculous. Limit the teams to 1 new tire per night, 6 new tires to start the season. If there is a 40-50 lap event, allow 2 new tires on those nights. 75 laps or more; 4 tires.
Answer: The tire for the division will stay the same as last year. CNS has and will continue to work towards keeping racing costs as minimal as possible without jeopardizing safety. Tires per event will be limited to 4 tires per event (2 rights and 2 lefts).
3) Add one or two BIG modified shows. Races that are 75 laps at least, that pays $2k to win or more. Something that rivals a Lucas Oil Modified event.
Answer: CNS continues to bring the best events it possibly can for the entertainment of the fans and racers and will research future opportunities.
SUPER STOCKS:
1) I would like to see them go back to stock!! 420 cam, dot tire, same offset wheel all 4 corners!! Rules like this will even up competition, and will bring more people to the class!!
Answer: CNS currently does not feel that the rules will be changed reflecting this suggestion, however the rule for 2013 will be “Tires per event will be limited to 4 tires per event (2 rights and 2 lefts).”
2) Can we do a tire changed to where we can buy takeoffs from other divisions for the super stocks? Answer: The tire for the division will stay the same as last year. CNS has and will continue to work towards keeping racing costs as minimal as possible without jeopardizing safety. 3) Can the super stocks use a kick-out style oil pan next year? Can they use poly locks on the rocker arms? Can manual transmissions be used in any model or only cars that originally came with manual trans be used?
Answer: Concerning the oil pan, the answer is no, Poly locks are ok right now, and manual transmissions can be run in any car.
4) I would like to see a tire change put us on the same tires as the sportsman’s, give us the option to buy take offs.
Answer: The tire for the division will stay the same as last year. CNS has and will continue to work towards keeping racing costs as minimal as possible without jeopardizing safety.
5) Open the engine rockers to a roller rocker, it wouldn't be a huge performance change but it would be a good choice for longevity.
Answer: CNS currently does not feel that the rules will be changed reflecting this suggestion.
6) I would like to see the fuel get changed to a lower octane, there is not a car out there that needs to have 110 maybe 104?
Answer: Pump gas not purchased from CNS is an option for this class already. Trying to police what octane fuel people have purchased from outside sources is time and cost prohibitive.
7) Total weight of the cars:
Metric Cars 3500
Novas 3500
Caprice 3450
Reason why: Metric cars are about 300 pounds shy and can add weight in areas that benefits percentage and weight down low. Caprices can add only about 50 pounds and don't have the advantage of positioning weight. Caprices only, should be able to gut the door reinforcing to help with positioning weight.
Answer: CNS management has decided that all cars in the class will need to weigh a minimum of 3450 lbs as presented to tech with the driver for the 2013 season.
8) All drivers that drive in upper classes should start in the back or be off one year before moving down to Super Stock division.
Answer: CNS currently does not feel that the rules will be changed reflecting this suggestion.
PURE STOCKS: Look for upcoming rules to be announced around January 1st 2013.
F-8:
1) I’ve talked to a majority of the guys and we would like to have the f-75’s back if we could, just a better all around tire, the Hoosier Comanche tires just plain didn’t last, so basically really just one good night on them.
Answer: The Comanche tire will be run for 2013 season. Tires per event will be limited to 4 tires per event (2 rights and 2 lefts).
2) What about a set shock rule, no tie down shocks –there expensive and not everyone can afford them. qa1 rebuildable shock, its very similar to the sportsmen shocks, if we just went to a pro shock (not rebuildable) less expensive and useable---its easy to have 500.00 plus in 4 shocks (the qa1) than it would be to use the pro shock, which Is about 250.00 for a set of 4(not rebuildable)
Answer: There will be no rebuildable shocks allowed and further rules on this topic will be announced in the future as it pertains to legal shocks.
3) I would like the staff at CNS to consider changing the rule made last year of any cars involved in an accident get sent to the back in f8-s. It leads to a lot of controversial calls, and as a driver I felt unfair situations arose. If we could go back to the at fault driver being sent to the back and the victim, if you will, maintaining their spot. I feel there was way to much controversy in f8-s this year, and at least 2 drivers involved in f8-s year aren’t coming back, I feel the integrity of the division was compromised and it needs to return to form so we don’t lose a division that is a fan favorite and one that I love, thank you for consideration in this matter.
Answer: CNS recognizes there are pros and cons considering the “no-fault” rule that was implemented last year. Based on that CNS will further evaluate if other strategies can be implemented that are not reliant on human interpretation and further the competition of the field.
TRAINS: No suggestions for trains were submitted.
GENERAL COMPETITOR REQUESTS:
1) This one goes for all classes. As drivers and owners we implore you to enforce the rules that are in the book. We cannot afford nor do we enjoy the absence of the enforcement of rules. A warning is ok, but after that, strict penalties must be handed down for cheating. If the rules are not enforced fully we cannot compete on a level playing field. Please enforce all rules or just eliminate them all together.
Answer: CNS can and will enforce all rules as written.
2) If we are going to be on a harder right side tire, the tendency will be for people to soak them again.
Answer: The rule book will be strictly enforced on this topic.
3) I know it's early, but I was starting to prep cars for next year. Will there be any significant changes to the engine rules for 2013? We are planning on running super stock, Sportsman and Late Models next year.
Answer: This is currently occurring and no updates are available currently.
4) Maybe consider a limited late model class (Late model chassis rules with 604 sealed GM Crate, NOT ASA) use Claim rule below to monitor.
Answer: This is currently not a viable option.
5) Claim rule; CNS will arrange with a GM dealer to have availability of a prearranged number of crate motors, anytime a driver finishes in the top 5, on the lead lap, they can claim one of the other top five winners long block motor. The person being claimed will receive a new sealed gm long block. The Claimer will pay the price of the new long block and $200 dollars teardown fee (split between the track and the person being claimed.) in return he will get the long block he claimed.
If some one has found a way around the sealed engines or has a engine builder with access to resealing the sealed engines, this will soon discourage them from spending the extra money to run a cheater engine, as they will have to start over with a new GM sealed crate every time their claimed.
Answer: This requires a substantial investment by others (specifically dealers) and as such CNS cannot say this either can or will occur as this is outside of CNS management control.
6) The 2013 rules should be available well in advance of Wittar's swap meet both vendors and buyers could benefit from prior preparation.
Answer: CNS concurs with this suggestion and that is why everything is occurring right now.
7) Is it possible for a driver to-on occasion-occupy an "owners" pit area when possessing either a written note or prior phone call to the track from the respective owner?
Answer: CNS does not take exception to this request if handled appropriately.
8) Announce the weekly purse payouts. It will bring more cars if they know what you pay to start the main.
Answer: Will be supplied by CNS management as requested.
9) Announce what it pays to win the championship, more cars may run for the championship.
Answer: Will be supplied by CNS management as requested.
10) Switch restarts to "Madhouse" style lineups. With one to go, a cone is placed on the track, each car can choose inside or outside of cone. If everyone from the top 5 takes the inside, 6th place can move all the way up to the front row outside on the restart for example.
Answer: CNS is considering many different formats to bring the most excitement to fans and racers.
11) Repave/restructure pit area. A lot of pit space is wasted in the pits; it would be nice if there were 2 rows of pits instead of one long one. Make any trailer over 30' long pit past the tech shed road. Move the main pit road closer to the grandstands, this will allow a 2nd pit road on the east side of the property that can provide pit space on one side of the road.
Answer: Under consideration.
12) Improve the pit pass purchase area. The weekly parking/waiting in line disaster at the pit gate is frustrating. Move pit access to the east gate (see idea #4) and widen the access road so that 4 STRAIGHT lines can be organized. At minimum, please make one or two of the windows cash/check only so that people don’t have to wait on the people paying with credit cards.
Answer: Under consideration.
13) The rule that does not allow a car to be worked on in the pits during a red flag is bad for the racers. It is bad enough that someone crashes, it is then an insult that they are not allowed to repair their car.
Answer: CNS concurs with this suggestion and the appropriate language prohibiting will be struck from the rule book for 2013.
14) NO SHIFTING ON STARTS AND RESTARTS: In 2011 there were NO crashes on restarts in any class! It didn't let the front row cars "out trick" the other cars on the start. Also removes chance of someone missing a shift and causing a huge wreck (see 2012 season).
Answer: Shifting will be allowed in 2013. Pace car speed or greater will be maintained from exit of pace car to the start line. It is the expectation that you will be nose to tail coming to the green. If the race leader reduces speed from exit of pace car to start line there will be a two position penalty to the lead car imposed at the discretion of the flag man either at the next yellow flag or at the end of the race.
